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are abrahamic religions all against homosexuality?

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i know this is a controversial topic... but judaism, christianity and islam all appear to be spreading hateful messages against homosexuals and many religious homosexuals keep denying this but homophobic passages speak for themselves and each one of these religions has many of those.

so can someone please explain why there are so many gay priests and christians and religious jews and muslims who say god doesn't mind the homosexuality? isn't being a homosexual in a way denouncing these religions altogether .

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  • Default-avatar
    Advice

    The thing is, it's important not to generalize when it comes to religion. You cannot judge all religious individuals by some, and you cannot judge all religious ways of thinking by others' interpretations that aren't necessarily relevant. You must investigate diligently and with justice to develop an understanding of what accurately reflects the reality.

    As for the verses, you are quite correct that there are many verses denouncing the practice of homosexuality, and in the case of Judaism such a practice is forbidden and considered an abomination. You will note, however, that all of these verses refer to the practice of homosexual sex, not to either individuals with the condition of homosexual attraction or love for same-sex individuals that does not manifest itself in sexual intercourse, the latter of which is frankly encouraged.

    To apply a blanket label of 'homophobia' to any viewpoint which holds the indulgence of homosexual impulses as immoral isn't really logical or true. One doesn't claim Jews to be afraid of pork, or Muslims terrified of alcohol, simply because these indulgences are abstained from. And the mentions in the sacred scripture of homosexuality fall to a mere handful of verses, hardly the sort of emphasis one would consider to be given to the source of fear.

    Obviously homophobia does come into play in many instances, but it should not be an assumed motive or basis of belief.

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      Comment

      Homophobia does not mean "fear of gay people" it is dislike of them..and in 95% of all cases religious people dislike us and everything we are.

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    • 17-24_f_w_h3_f1
      Comment

      Its not disliking it's denying that we exist they don't believe that people are born this way and that we cant just change it, some even call it a disease which is really hurtful, People just don't accept what they don't wanna accept, they also raise their children saying that homosexuality is wrong and that might be a problem if they did have a homo son or daughter, stuff like that lead to depression when you grow up in a family of homophobes and you're afraid to come out cause of their stupid believes

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  • 17-24_m_w_h2_f1
    Comment

    My friend Curt, an editor at RWW, has mentioned that in an earlier correspondence to congratulate us for Ahwaa, and I think it's very relevant to share it:

    "There are possibly three places in the Torah and Old Testament
    where it could be interpreted as forbidding homosexuality. How many
    references are there in the same books to poverty? Violence? Taking
    care of the weak? If there are three refs to homosexuality and 3,000
    to poverty, doesn't that mean that G-d is 1,000 times more concerned
    about poverty than homosexuality? As someone who thinks G-d's in the
    scriptures of our religions somewhere, but every one of which were
    written by men, and men are fallible, you have to use your apriori
    skills - reason, for instance - to determine what comes from the
    divine and what from the mortal.

    Also, this is cool. This guy realized he was gay. He was already a
    Christian pastor. He wanted to stay in Christianity because he
    believed it. So he looked through Old Testament/New scripture and
    analyzed what it was really saying about homosexuality.

    http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian"

    Curt

    Reply to Zidan
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  • You can use religion and scriptures to justify anything and everything. You can pick any ambiguous text to justify what it may or might mean since a lot of what is written is very vague.

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      Actually much of the scripture on the subject is rather explicit.

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    • You just proved my point.

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      I fail to see how, you stated that it was vague and ambiguous and I stated that, contrarily, there is much text that is explicit (i.e. not vague or ambiguous).

      For instance, the terms in the Tanakh cannot be considered ambiguous in any sense, it clearly forbids the practice in no uncertain terms. Other scripture may not be as clear, but to say that none of it is simply isn't true.

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    • 25-34_m_w_h2_f1
      Comment

      My Tanakh knowledge might be a bit rusty but if I remember the mentioning of it being in a passage that contrasts laying with men instead of or like women. Those verses can be interpreted as meaning those men who lay with men only for sexual satisfaction because of their inability to find a women at the time *think jailsex* not those who are purely attracted to only the same sex. That's usually the way that reform Judaism, among other sects, interprets the tanakh verses dealing with same sex intercourse.

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      Seems rather to be grasping at straws. I see no indication in the text that would support that.

      What's more, how Jews in this day interpret Leviticus is a moot point, because frankly no Jews anywhere actually follow Leviticus at all. When was the last time you heard of someone being put to death for adultery, or working on the sabbath, blasphemy, or sodomy by any Jewish community, including Israel?

      The wording of Leviticus basically only says "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (Lev. 18:22 and 20:13)

      I have to take the same stance here that I do with my Christian friends. I point out, time and time again, that Jesus abrogated the Torah (hence why they don't follow any of the other laws, such as kosher diet, burnt offerings, or abstaining from work on the Sabbath) and that there is no concrete reference to homosexuality in the Evangel/Gospels/New Testament.

      When Christians take heavy-handed or hateful stances against homosexuality I have to remind them that no, that's not part of the laws brought by Christ. The laws of Moses, however, pretty clearly forbid it in strong terms.

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  • Here's my argumen (apologies in advance for any offence - nonintentionalt: if God's wish for all of his creations to procreate, wouldn't wee feel cramped up in this little planet? I think it is part of His wisdom that homosexuals exist, so as to throw in some balance in the population-budding.

    • 25-34_f_w_h3_f2
      Comment

      Does it make sense for anyone when people continue to justify homophobia with arguments like these? As if our only mission in life as human beings is to conceive as many children as we can to further populate this planet? Why obsess about bringing more children into this world when instead, people can help millions of children in need?

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    • hi5 to that!

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    • 17-24_m_w_h3_f1
      Comment

      Excellent point Reem! That's what I was saying, and I've mentioned it before in a lengthy article in Arabic here on the website:

      http://ar.ahwaa.org/topics/3

      Some so-called "straight" couples will prefer to practise "unusual" sexual positions, practises, or whatever which will not bring children, anal intercourse for instance among million of practises!

      Can we label this "straight" couple as being an "stray" (the popular Arabic word for homos) because they practise something which will not end in bringing children!

      If someone will base his phobia in general on the fact that only a vaginal intercourse between a male and a female is the "righteous" practise, because it may yield some kids. Then the phobia will include anyone and everyone who commit any other practise.

      Let alone, that the practise/position of sex is absolutely private, and no one has a single f**ing right of interfering with others sexuality/practises/positions/orientation.

      Enough said!

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  • 17-24_f_b_h1_f2
    Experience

    everyone, i wanted to thank you for your input. i have parted ways with religion because i feel unaccepted by all. my partner is religious and i never understood that. she says what amadeus stated above, which is that religion is a personal connection between a person and god and that no one can interfere. she does not discuss it with me for this reason. she thinks it's too personal. but what i feel is that everyone who preaches homophobia is more or less doing so from a religious point of view and that has driven me away from faith.

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  • 17-24_m_f_h1_f1
    Comment

    (Apologies for any unintended offence - none is meant, of course).

    There is a great scene from the show The West Wing in which President Bartlet (America's favourite president, and the best president they never had) takes apart a bigoted radio show presenter by quoting the Bible back at her. (He's well versed because he once thought of becoming a priest before going into politics). The point? Most of 'the books' for the 'people of the book' have great stuff about living with ourselves and each other - and sometimes other stuff, too, which doesn't work as well in the world we've created over the centuries... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-ip47WYWc I hope you enjoy it as much as I do!

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  • 17-24_m_f_h1_f1
    Advice

    South African Muhsin Hendricks is an Islamic cleric and a gay man.

    He runs a foundation called The Inner Circle, which helps Muslims, who are struggling to accept their sexuality. He has come to the Netherlands to spread a simple message: “It’s okay to be Muslim and gay!”

    http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/gay-imam-spreads-message-homosexuality-not-sinful

    • 51-65_f_f_h1_f3
      Comment

      I really respect this individual for showing that reconciling Islam with our identity is not only possible but encouraged.

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  • 25-34_f_b_h2_f3
    Comment

    I don't know much about what religion(s) say about homosexuality. But once upon a time homosexuality was a taboo topic for me, but as a straight person, it was also as taboo as anal intercourse betwwwn heterosexuals which is also considered "haram" in Islam. I've been told many times but never looked into it honestly. I take it for granted though, I am sure somewhere it clearly states its haram-- but don't we almost always focus on what we want and call it "sin" all the while giving "purity" and "cleanliness of the SOUL" the wrong definition?

    Purify your soul, purify your intentions, don't harm anyone while doing so physically or emotionally with dirty intentions, and always try to explain never give up... but don't let it drown you either.... let it save you. It's a challenge to living a simple life and not complicating anything, being a good pure person, you can't go wrong with that! I don't believe that anyone good will go to hell. If all religions have taught us anything, it is this final bottom line. Most people who preach that homosexuality is intolerant in religions have a shit load of sins to deal with, and they are not. So you face your own God, and justify your situation to Him. Just like they are!

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  • 17-24_m_b_h3_f1
    Comment

    I think those two talks by Tariq Ramadan are interesting about this topic:

    http://youtu.be/BqbdrAcAC5g

    http://youtu.be/wsaWjxkZB3w

    Reply to BlueS
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  • 17-24_m_w_h1_f3
    Comment

    Every religious denomination (Abrahamic or non-Abrahamic) has its own official standpoint on homosexuality and homophobia. Most modern or reformed religious denomations, such as Reform Judaism, Liberal Islam/Sufiism, and multiple Christian denominations are accepting of the LGBT community and do not see one's sexual orientation as a sin or abomination at all (sexual practices have a different story). It all depends on how the denomination interprets its sacred texts in light of past and present contexts. Orthodox Judaism and the Roman Catholic Church denounce homosexuality and all non-heteronormative sexual or gender identities as immoral, demonic curses since that's simply how they interpret things; whereas, the modern Judeo-Christian sects do not give a hell-ticket to gays since their mentality is based on modernization and progress in strict contrast to the more traditional ones who are leaning more to preserving their beliefs and history. Besides, I don't think we should give that much importance on any religion's viewpoint on the morality of homosexuality; it's not as if we give much heed to some of their archaic notions of slavery and father-worship. No offense to anyone of course

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    Anonymous
    Comment

    AKAIK you've got the aneswr in one!

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  • 25-34_f_w_h1_f3
    Experience

    I'm a little late to this conversation, but here are my two cents:

    There is really no clear cut dichotomy of homosexuality and heterosexuality in the Bible and Quran (forgive me for my lack of knowledge on Judaism's stance on the matter). The inferences that they are wrong pertain mostly to rape and not necessarily being gay.

    Reply to MadameOvary
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  • I think I am so very late here
    But these are my two cents
    One of the things people usually forget, particularly clerics, when discussing homosexuality
    Is that in the context of the Abrahamic religions the opposition to homosexual practices that emerged in the context of ancient Judaism was not necessarily a moral point of view as much as it was an opposition to the pagan practices of the world surrounding them, this is the reason why for example male homosexuality was outright condemned but not so the case with female, which remained an ambiguous topic until the early middle ages when Maimonides condemned it and not from a legal viewpoint but only because it was a practice of Egyptian women, following in the older trend of outlawing homosexuality because it was a practice of the Greeks.
    Whenever we read the Tanakh, or the Koran or the New Testament at face value and literally, we tend to forget the fundamental issue that if our religions today were solely based on what those books said prima facie, none of those religions would be what they're today AT ALL
    There's a very important question of tradition and hence of interpretation since tradition is always a human thing, it's the insurance from the passage of time, in a certain way
    While many would say that the Talmudic law, Hadith and the Church Fathers were inspired by God himself
    As much as religion has somewhat changed to fit technology, there's no reason why it wouldn't change to understand a change in social normativity.
    As for Judaism: Some obscure passages in the Jerusalem Talmud discuss cases having to do with
    homosexuality rather openly,
    precisely because they saw it as a legal issue rather than as a moral one
    There's a professor at Dartmouth who has researched for years all the cultural references to homosexuality in ancient Judaism, including the lyrical relationship between Jonathan and David in the Bible, the poetry of Yehuda Ha-Levi in the Middle Ages, and the strange case of some cross-dressing dude in medieval Hebrew poetry.
    Most rabbis would have to agree that what is forbidden is not homosexual love
    But only certain sexual acts, and as someone mentioned here above, perhaps in a context of rape and violence.
    For anyone who's interested, there's a book written years ago by
    Steven Greenberg called
    Wrestling with God and men,
    Homosexuality in the Jewish Tradition
    http://uwpress.wisc.edu/books/2576.htm
    If anyone's interested, I could post a download link, it's a bit old but challenging for every tradition you're coming from. Right now I disagree on him with many points of Jewish law, but the general approach remains innovative.

    Reply to lonelynumber
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  • i dont know what to comment on this topic because i am myself religious since my own background teaches me that, and i dont see my gayness interfere with my prayers. what i thought about is that, do i pray for abomination to all the homo creation- i certainly dont do that, i just pray for the best for all entire people.

    why a man should damned another, for we dont have that power. only god does, and i respect that. i know a gay couple who went to mecca, El-Farouk Khaki and his partner, Troy Jackson- he; el-farouk is building a mosque that accept any sexuality and allows any faith to come in to hear the sermon. Islam is all about caring, love and faithful to one another- not to wage war, or hasad against each other. here i typed back from the advocate magazine october 11 2011: enjoy and let us support them :-)

    Pink Crescents: Being Gay and Muslim

    Meet El-Farouk Khaki, a gay Muslim who saw a need in his community, so he cofounded a growing mosque that welcomes people of all sexual orientations.
    By Amanda D. Quraishi

    During the past decade North America has seen an emergence of politically motivated Chicken Littles running around frantically warning of an imminent takeover by Muslims and their Sharia law. Insurgent Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain, for example, famously said he wouldn’t allow any Muslim to serve in his Cabinet for fear of the foreign-sounding code of laws. Religious and political scholars as well as the Muslim mainstream have effectively repudiated such nonsense. The real story, however, lies with progressive Muslims who are using the protection of secular Western laws to actively reform centuries-old interpretations of their faith.

    In May 2009 in Toronto, El-Farouk Khaki, his partner, Troy Jackson, and their mutual friend Laury Silvers founded el-Tawhid Juma Circle, the first mosque created for all gender identities and sexual orientations. And this year two sister circles formed — in Atlanta and Washington, D.C.

    Khaki is a longtime activist in the Muslim world, but he knew a place for LGBT people was needed after September 11, 2001. Khaki found himself called to defend Muslims living in the West against discrimination and prejudice because of terrorism done in the name of Islam. Yet, despite his dedication in representing Muslims, he soon ran into opposition.

    “I found that there isn’t a lot of understanding for someone who is both openly Muslim and openly gay,” Khaki says. “Many queer or socially progressive Muslims give up their religion because they feel there is no space for them, and often they lose their spirituality in the process. I got tired of people saying ‘we need more inclusive spaces’; ‘we need more female imams.’ Who is stopping you from having these things? If there is no space for you, make the space!”

    Before founding el-Tawhid Juma Circle, Khaki in 2005 had helped organize the first female-led, mixed-gender Muslim congregational prayer to ever be held in a mosque.

    Khaki’s religious activism began in 1991, when he founded a social support group for LGBT Muslims, called Salaam. He also cofounded Min-Alaq, a politically progressive Muslim group. And he’s run a private law practice specializing in immigration since 1993. Most of his cases involve representing men and women who are fighting violence, discrimination, or persecution because of gender or sexual orientation.

    Born in Tanzania, Khaki is a refugee whose family fled first to Great Britain and then immigrated to Canada.

    El-Tawhid Juma Circle grew out of his sincere desire to give Muslims an opportunity to engage with one another as individuals. “Around the time el-Tawhid Juma Circle was being founded I was in a meeting with someone who told me, ‘I’d like to see a gay mosque’ and I said, ‘I wouldn’t. I’d like to see a mosque that was inclusive for everybody,“ Khaki says.

    Unlike informal Muslim LGBT-friendly groups, el-Tawhid Juma Circle strives to adhere to authentic methods of Islamic worship, including the ritual prayers and the prescribed rules for performing the khutbah (sermon). What makes the community most unusual, however, is its rule against gender segregation. All members are encouraged to participate. So rare is this egalitarian mosque environment that each week individuals from around the world join the group via Skype to share in the khutbah and pray along with el-Tawhid Juma Circle.

    Social media has been a boon to the movement that Khaki and his community are helping to spark. Until now LGBT Muslims have lived in isolation or in small, disenfranchised communities. Now they — along with other progressive-minded Muslims — have the opportunity to connect online, forming an even larger global community.

    Just knowing that they have brothers and sisters around the globe who have had to struggle with the same kind of identity issues and the same kind of discrimination within their faith communities is a huge step forward, Khaki says.

    He hopes to see more groups in different parts of the world joining el-Tawhid Juma Circle. “Let’s not pretend we don’t have an agenda,” he laughed. “After all, if Facebook can help organize revolutions in freedom squares around the world, surely it can organize revolutions of the heart.”

    site:http://www.advocate.com/News/News_Features/Pink_Crescents_Being_Gay_and_Muslim/

    Reply to MiKa_TheGayAgenda
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  • 51-65_m_b_h3_f1
    Experience

    As a Christian, I had to struggle a lot not with my faith, rather with how people interpret that faith. Because, let's not forget this: there is a difference between one and the other. I do love God, not because I was taught this was the right thing to do, but because I've always lived under His wings. Moreover, it makes no sense at all (to me, at any rate) to reject religion because of religious people's opinions. Shunning religion is hiding my head in the sands... After all, where can I hide from this deep-rooted faith within me that God is really there??!!

    So, I chose to believe in God, and declare humans fallible. I also believe that God, in His never-ending mercy, had provided us with two sources of His wisdom: one written on paper, scriptures, and another written (with His divine finger, just like the first) in Nature. So, by analysing Nature, in what is usually called "Science", we can approach scriptures under a new light. Problem is: deciphering the natural scriptures takes far more time and effort, and people are more inclined to disregard them altogether!!

    When I pray, I experience no remorse. On the contrary, I give thanks to God perpetually for His guidance. After all, without His mercy I wouldn't have been able to find my other half; I never had the courage to search for him on my own; I just kept crying for God's guidance with lots of tears.

    So, in the end, Praise be to God.

    Reply to GiorLeo
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    Going back to the initial question of why you'll get certain people from all of these religions who seem to say that it's an acceptable practice despite the verses that appear to indicate the contrary, there's a twofold reason for this.

    The first is that they want it to be so. You'll see this with almost every religion, people still want to call themselves "Jewish" but they work on the sabbath and don't keep kosher, people who call themselves "Christian" but still get divorce, call themselves "Muslim" but drink and don't keep hijab...and not just people who are not just uneducated on the subject, but actively rationalize disobedience or dismissal of the teachings that don't confirm their own current practices and opinions. The same is such with homosexuality: they don't understand the illegality of it within their religion, particularly in light of modern politics and in light of their completely justifiable empathy for the struggles of homosexuals. Instead of admitting they don't believe their religion to be true, they act in denial of its law.

    The second reason is that by-in-large people are segregated into schools of thought on a given subject, and are not well-informed for themselves. They imitate blindly the beliefs of others: both sides' arguments are largely ignorant of the actual teachings, and are polarized, partisan, reactionary division into two diametrically opposed camps whose positions are determined more by opposing the other side than by any earnest assessment of the facts for themselves.

    • 51-65_m_b_h3_f1
      Comment

      As for me, without completely dismissing the possibility of your first premise (of course, I NEED to feel I'm still a believer!), I beg to differ about the rest of your argumentation.

      My standpoint is that "religion" is not really made of crystal clear commands alone; there are lots of _inferred_ laws and/or principles, together with lots of _interpretations_. Both of those can (and indeed do) cause a lot of harm, and are the source of perpetual rows.

      For example, from a Christian point of view (the one I know best), where in the whole Bible does God state that the right hand is the better one to use? If I happen to be left-handed, why can I NOT use my "virtually right" hand to make the sign of the cross?! How and why would that offend God??! But people find it difficult to fight "tradition", even where it is not truly in line with the scriptures.

      In general, each and every generation should re-read the holy scriptures with a fresh mind, under the light of fresh scientific discoveries, for example. A case in point: What have Christians made of the first few chapters in Genesis BEFORE archaeology?

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      Oh certainly, this is not to say that there aren't those traditions and the like (in fact, oftentimes those traditions end up being much more emphasized than the actual laws...see how Christian dialogue in my country is much more concerned with illegalizing gay marriage than illegalizing remarriage after divorce).

      But something I see increasingly in that "re-read" of the scriptures is people attempting to rationalize it and adapt it to modern attitudes and sensibilities. Now, not to get into a theological debate on the subject but as a Baha'i I believe this to be because these revelations are revealed progressively and their societal laws are specifically suited to a particular time and condition of society (an example being laws concerning consumption of pork or wiping with a particular hand - both extremely prudent in a time before germ theory, meat thermometers, and proper sanitation) and people struggle with the incompatibility of the laws of a former dispensation with today's society...imagine if a Jewish community actually tried to enact the laws of Leviticus today! Having an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, stoning children for cursing their parents, burning bulls on altars, putting rapists into wedlock...

      It's apparent to most people that these things are not compatible with present-day society (or even society two thousand years ago, hence why Christ abrogated them) but typically, rather than acknowledging that the law is progressive in nature, not by flaw but by design, they either disavow the religion itself or rationalize an incomplete adoption of it or meaning-altering interpretation.

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  • check my post on honesty i guess that might helps...

    Reply to MiKa_TheGayAgenda
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  • Funny thing is, if you do a little research you will be surprised. some say the words were interpreted differently. and there are a lot of Gay Imams out there. really interesting.

    Reply to PinkChocolate
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  • 25-34_f_w_h1_f2
    Experience

    Some of Muslim Scholars have finally deviated to support the muslim LGBT community, however most of them ( if not all ) have considered it a problem just like drinking for example.. not everyone who drinks is directly a NON MUSLIM but it sure is a sin, homosexuality have been translated the same way.
    There is one Imam only that has supported homosexuality who is a homosexual himself, he claims that whatever has been said in Quraan about Lut's people was about male rape and not male sexual connection or emotional relation.
    you can read alot on this topic online ( specially tumblr queer muslims blogs )

    • 17-24_m_b_h3_f3
      Comment

      The truth is you need to look what the Quran is telling you. That means judging an argument...not whether are person is homosexual or not. Homosexuality may have led to explore the idea in details but that does not mean he has done it fit his own desire. And if we are talking about the same imam, I think that guy was married for six years. The most convincing evidence that I have with me is that even if a gay person(not a muslim or a chirstian or a jew) gets married opposite sex interaction isnt very happy for them and they do not change. That made Me question whether the Quran had actually condemned homosexuality. And the arguement put forward to say gayism is a sin is just poor and creates more suffering.

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    • 17-24_m_b_h3_f3
      Comment

      More importantly the Quran may not even said anything against homosexuality

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  • 25-34_f_b_h1_f3
    Comment

    yes.All religions r against homosexuality

    • 17-24_f_f_h1_f1
      Comment

      this is kind of a shallow reply for such a detailed topic so certainly needs lot more details & search & reading before releasing such statement

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    Anonymous
    Advice

    do u even giv a shit abt religion? cmon !! it's ur life !! enjoy it !!! hav sex with whoever u want !! dnt make some stupid quotes stop against u to liv a life u want !!

    • 51-65_m_b_h3_f1
      Comment

      Oh, believe me, I am living my life the way I want! And that is being both homosexual AND a devout Christian. BOTH. I wouldn't have it any other way.

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